Tell us a bit about yourself!
I’m a 30-year-old professional girl in Canada, I have a very stressful job and I work a lot but when I’m not I enjoy reading, hanging out with friends and family, and running.
Prior to your experiment with Ashley Madison, what was your experience with relationships?
I’ve never had a lot of luck in relationships and have spent most of my adult life single. The relationships I’ve had always seem to be very one-sided –one of us is more invested than the other.
I’m still hopeful to one day meet that elusive guy who likes me as much as I like him and vice versa! As far as I know, I haven’t been cheated on, and I’ve never cheated on a boyfriend in any way.
What made you decide to sign up for Ashley Madison?
After I turned 30 I kind of took stock of my life and I realized that, after putting it on the back burner for a long time, I wanted a more exciting sex life. A big part of the turn on and excitement of sex for me has been to be strongly desired by my lovers.
I also wanted the opportunity to explore without worrying about all of the other issues that factor in when you’re dating and trying to determine if someone would make a good all around partner.
Ultimately it was kind of a spur of the moment thing where I just thought I would sign up and see what happened, I didn’t really have any strong expectations (and AM is free for women, so no financial factors either!)
Can you tell us about the guys you’re seeing? Why are they cheating on their wives?
I didn’t expect to wind up seeing four different men, but it’s true what they say – all the good ones are married! I was only on AM for about 3 weeks and I spoke to so many great men, I couldn’t choose just one!
· J is in his early forties, he has small children and really loves his wife a lot. Due to health issues she has lost all interest in sex for several years now, and he didn’t want to give that part of his life up. He has told me that he was on AM for over a year and I’m the only person he’s met. He’s a very sweet, smart, successful guy who is just missing passion in his life.
· A is in his late thirties, self-employed and very stressed out! I think he’s been struggling for years with feeling inadequate in his life, and unhappy in his relationship, but for many reasons (mainly financial) feels like he can’t leave. I honestly think he’s doing this to try to take back some control in his life.
· K is in his mid-thirties, married with two kids. He and his wife have agreed that their relationship doesn’t work and they are in a ‘don’t ask/don’t tell’ open relationship, but they’re continuing to live together for the kids
· My last lover is a Dom (ah!) who I refer to as Sir – he’s in his late forties and his wife is not interested in BDSM at all, while he feels very strongly about that part of his life, so he has sought it outside his marriage.
How do you manage to date these men in a discreet way?
Well, we don’t really ‘date’ – if I wanted that I’d find a nice single guy! I met all of them in public at first, coffee shops, drinks, that kind of thing. Once the sexual relationship was established, now they just come to my place (I live alone). We also keep in touch between meetings by text, email, and sometimes phone.
Do the people in your life know about this?
Nobody knows and I have no intention of letting anyone find out. While I’m comfortable with what I’m doing, I know it is not something that most people would understand and I just don’t want to go there!
Why do you prefer this sort of arrangement rather than dating a single guy?
I wouldn’t say I prefer it, it’s just something I’m experiencing right now. I have told all my lovers that if I meet a guy I really care about (and I am dating single guys too) that they’re getting kicked to the curb, and they all understand!
Has this changed your views on marriage/monogamy/commitment?
I don’t think so – the fact that some people cheat doesn’t mean that everyone does. Relationships are very complicated and have to evolve as people change, and sometimes that’s just not feasible.
I honestly do think that sometimes cheating can help a relationship (so long as the one being cheated on doesn’t find out) because it can make the person feel generally happier, less frustrated, etc, which has an effect on every area of their life.
Would you like to get married eventually?
If I find the right guy – definitely! If I don’t find the right guy, I’m perfectly happy on my own.
How would you feel if you got married and your husband cheated on you?
It’s hard to know because it would depend on the circumstances. I’m sure I would be very upset no matter what the circumstances, but if our relationship had significant other problems or I had completely withdrawn from it (emotionally, sexually, whatever) I think it would be more understandable.
One thing I think I have learned is that it is possible to distinguish different parts of our lives – just as we can have many friends without diminishing the value of each of them, it’s also possible to have multiple lovers – enjoying your time with one doesn’t mean the other intrinsically suffers.
Thanks for sharing your story, Lucy. Have any of you ever knowingly dated married men? What are your thoughts on monogamy/cheating/marriage?
While the open relationship makes sense to me (because both consenting adults are in on the decision), the rest of it seems very cruel. (In fact, it's hitting super close to home and I'm feeling physically ill over this post…is this how the women who slept with my boyfriends felt? So nonchalant?)
I've been cheated on several times and not only does it feel like a personal betrayal, but it also (for me) felt like my power was utterly taken away. Instead of being a respected part of a relationship, where I could make my own decisions about what kind of relationship I wanted to be in, I was only a prop in someone else's choices. This is why open relationships don't bother me, but secretive cheating very much does. Because people have a right to make their own decisions about who they sleep with…and if they don't want to sleep with someone who is sleeping with other people, that should be their choice.
I know you're trying to empathize with these guys' unique situations, but I hope you'll also take a moment to try and empathize with their wives and to recognize that you only have half the story. You hear about a wife being emotionally or sexually distant, but in her world she might be struggling with depression or simply think that she and her husband have hit a good rhythm.
I'm not blaming you or trying to shame you, so please don't take it that way. I am asking you to walk a mile in these women's shoes before you go on sleeping with their husbands.
I know you said you wanted a more exciting sex life (and get that, for sure), but couldn't you have no-strings-attached, exploring-myself sex with single guys?
So well said and respectful, Gigi.
I have been cheated on many times before and found this article equally upsetting. You hit the nail on the head Gigi in all my thoughts and feelings on this matter.
I had the same gut-churning reaction to this.
Did the men who have cheated on me tell the women they cheated with that they were unhappy in their relationship, or that they weren't getting enough at home when the truth was that they just had cripplingly low self-esteem and were looking to bolster their egos in the most cowardly, dishonest way possible? Did those women believe them? I'm sure they were convincing. God knows I was at home believing they loved me and were faithful to me, since that was the deal we'd made.
Gigi, I hope that anyone considering entering into this kind of relationship will take your advice and try to extend some empathy to the person they know is being lied to on the other end of things.
I just found out that my partner of 7+ years has been cheating on me for 6 of them. His go-to 'move' with these women was to describe me as cold and sexless, and to gain their pity by presenting himself as having to repress his high sex drive on my behalf.
In reality, I have a really high sex drive, and he has lots of issues surrounding sex. Rather than deal with his discomfort, he preferred to tell me that he didn't like sex that much, and slutshame me whenever I tried to address the disparity between what I wanted, and what he was willing to do. When I caught him cheating, and confronted him about it, he seemed genuinely shocked that I really did want more intimacy in my life.
So take whatever your lover tells you with a grain of salt. My guess is that these men are lying to themselves about the state of their relationship, and are too cowardly to make any changes in their life or confront their fears. Meanwhile, you are perpetuating a very great betrayal against a woman you have never met.
I couldn't have put it better myself. This interview was very upsetting and hard to read.
agree with all of the above, particularly; "So take whatever your lover tells you with a grain of salt. My guess is that these men are lying to themselves about the state of their relationship, and are too cowardly to make any changes in their life or confront their fears."
Sarah Von, perhaps a true story in the eyes of someone who has been cheated ON whould be a fitting follow up?
I have been both the one cheated on and (unknowingly) the other woman. I had my partner's mistresses befriend me so as to gain more information about our relationship and myself. I was physically attacked by my BF's mistress at one point, after he broke things off with her.
I was also inadvertently the "other woman" when I was seeing a man who told me that although they were broken up, he and his ex were still close with one another since they had dated for so long. Turns out they were so close because they were still actually dating. He could never admit this to me (even when his friends told me and I had proof he was lying to me!), but when I found out I ended things with him.
Gigi is right, you have no idea the real situation these men are in. If anyone is going to begin a relationship like this or continue in a relationship like the ones described, then you have ask yourself if you're ready to be "the other woman" in all the worst meanings of the terms, because unless you know the wife and know what's going on (and I do have friends who are in open marriages like this), that could very well be what is going on.
I've commented elsewhere, but for me the reasons why they are cheating are not really in play in my mind. I'm not justifying things (he has a bad relationship, therefore it's okay that he's cheating) I'm just doing what I'm doing, right or wrong. I am not looking for a 'relationship' with any of these men. While I am very fond of them, if any of them actually left their wives I don't think I would be boyfriend/girlfriend with any of them (and not because I knew they had cheated – because there are many other factors that go into a complete relationship that aren't really there with them – what can I say, I'm a picky gal!)
Lucy, while I realize that this is an old article, I felt I had to comment…
Every time you’ve been confronted with the fact that there are real, flesh and blood women attached to these men, you turn it around, then begin stating how you feel as opposed to actually addressing that you are assisting 4 married/attached men with screwing over their wives.
It’s messed up. You’re not actually addressing the issue at all. Sure you say that you’d dump a guy if he left his wife for you, or tried to & while this assertion may be noble & all, (in your mind ONLY) it’s still too little, too late. Your part of the problem, own it & I might respect you a bit.
Bottom line, you don’t want to find unattached guys to f@&k, you don’t want to have the conversation with unattached guys about how you just want uncommitted sex, so you go hunting in the fields of attached men.
You are the lowest of the low. You can’t even feign ignorance because he maybe lied & said he was married, because you know. There are 4 men, with 4 wives & 4 families that you are leeching from, I cannot tell you how disgusting & disturbing I find your nonchalance.
As to you saying “it would depend on the situation” if you were ever married & cheated on? I doubt it, thus type stuff takes on a WHOLE NEW LIGHT when it happens to you. And since what goes around comes around, I suspect you’ll reep what you’ve been sowing from your dabbling with married men.
At least I know that I hope this is the case. Then you’ll experience 1st hand how insulting your feigned nonchalance is.
I know this article is getting older, but after spending 1 year on-line dating ridiculously horrible single men my age (I'm 50), I signed up for AM May 1, 2014, and within 2 weeks had 3 fabulous married lovers. They all have some version of your guys' stories and quite frankly I don't care why they are cheating. I just decided that I didn't want to live a sexless life, just because there is a shortage of "acceptable" single guys out there. All the good ones ARE married, whether they are happy or not is an entirely different subject, and I would have to say NOT, but I don't really care. We don't date, we give each other physical pleasure and intimacy, without having to deal with the realities of a "relationship". I have no interest in dating any of these men, and hope we are never caught, because I don't want to cause undue pain for the wives/families. It may seem selfish, and maybe it is, but I don't feel guilty…I'm single and can sleep with whoever I like. I like my guys very much. I could have had as many lovers as there are days in the year, but 3 is manageable, and I get to keep my full, happy single life just the way I like it. I love my guys, but am not and never will be "in love" with any of them. I also have 3 single FWB's I see occasionally, but the married guys are better lovers, more considerate of my time and space, more respectful, show up on time, keep in touch, and express their appreciation without hesitation. They make me feel desirable and adored. Who wouldn't love that? And they are all much younger than I am !
Yeah well, your just as much of a “piece” as Lucy…
Ever wonder if it’s not that there are fewer acceptable guys or just that acceptable ones just don’t want you? Making taken ones, ones who will only meet you in a hotel room your only option?
I’m so glad it suits you so well, I’m sure it suits the married men too. After all, as you stated, you don’t date, so it’s not like they have to do a lot of work with you or others like you to get laid…
I’m also guessing from the last line that your probably old, so it’s not like you still command the pick of the litter anymore.
Women like you and Lucy? It won’t be real until your confronted by the living breathing counterpart of your lovers relationship? What would you do then? If a wife found out & called you on you’re underhanded garbage?
I doubt it would be so easy to rationalize your sh!t if you were face to face with one of the guys angry wives….
I have never dated a married man – and hope that I never would. I know that someone who lies and cheats in a relationship is not a "good one" – it may be good sex, but he is not a good person, just sad, lonely, and lost, which I would very quickly find out after spending non-sex time with him.
I think Lucy is really caught up in what she "thinks" is going on (her descriptions of the men must have been written by them!) rather than looking at the situation beyond her own needs.
That’s the problem.
Lucy is only thinking of her needs, not of the other woman in the picture. But, that’s fine, karma, she’s a harsher mistress than Lucy will ever be. Here’s hoping she visits Lucy in the future.
Cheers…
I'm a monogamy person, but I understand that not everyone is. I don't mind the people who mutually consent to an open relationship with their spouse, but sneaking around isn't great. I empathize with GiGi; I've been cheated on, and it's not fun. In my case, I found out that I was in an "open" relationship — against my will! So that's where my thoughts are.
For Lucy, I can see why this would be liberating. I appreciate you sharing your story, Lucy. This is completely foreign to me, but it is a reminder that we all make our own decisions and live with that. I'm sure I've made decisions others haven't liked either. My hope is for you to stay safe, strong, and ultimately meet the right person for you.
This is perfect. Thank you.
Thanks for the comment! I fully view this part of my life as one of those crazy things I did one year and not a life-long thing. I was always in school and being responsible during my (should have been) care-free twenties, so now I'm experiencing this. I appreciate that you recognize that just because someone might do something that is wrong, they're not necessarily a bad person.
Wow, how interesting. I'd never heard of Ashley Madison until now… I think for me, it all depends on the circumstances… If the participant is in an open relationship, I don't really see the problem. But given how hurt you say you'd feel if you got cheated on, your rationale for willfully helping others cheat is really problematic for me.
I gotta say, I chuckled @ this line: "but it’s true what they say – all the good ones are married." Um…
I agree that Lucy's statement about being "very upset" if she found out she was being cheated on appeared very problematic. To me, cheating takes two people – the one doing the cheating and the one who is willfully helping the other person cheat. If a person knows they are participating in the betrayal of someone else's trust, then to me that is a complete and total disregard for another person's feelings. I agree 100% with Gigi in that cheating is taking away a person's control and ability to make choices within their relationship. Bringing a third party into a relationship should be a choice that both persons within the relationship make together.
I'd never heard of Ashley Madison before, either, but I'm not surprised it exists. I have to agree with Gigi in the empathizing with the women, but I'd go further and think about the kids in the relationships where kids are there. An affair, when there is children involved, is destructive to so many more lives than just the husband and wife. It breaks the entire family, and the kids are left with so many negative ripple effects. I would know.
Liveletlive I wonder if you're replying to someone ahead of me in the comment section? Otherwise I'm not sure I understand your reply.
Whoops, I coulda swore I replied to a different comment that talked about not blaming the mistress but the husband, but I cant find it?! weird! lol Sorry about that!
To bring a different point of view to the comment section: I think it's perfectly acceptable what Lucy does since she's not the one in a commitment. It's not as if she has forced these men to cheat on their wives, she hasn't even "seduced" them or anything like that.
And – in part @Gigi – if my husband cheated on me, I would blame HIM (maybe me), but not the other woman.
I've heard this argument about people who knowingly have sex or carry on relationships with married/partnered/attached people many times, and while, yes, I agree that the person IN the relationship is technically the one doing the cheating, they wouldn't be able to do it alone. Sure, maybe if one person told them cheating wasn't acceptable to them they might just find someone else to cheat with, but maybe it would be the thing that makes them realize that they need to actually deal with whatever problems have given them the urge to lie to their partner.
While it doesn't mean you're an evil person or anything, thinking that it's not your problem because technically you're not the one doing the cheating is to me a narrow and selfish way to view the situation and it means you aren't seeing the bigger picture.
I think that we all have a responsibility to hold each other to a better standard of honesty then that. I don't think the kind of shutting off of compassion and empathy you have to be capable of to be the "other woman" or "other man" is good for anyone, including the person doing the shutting off.
Obviously I think I'm less culpable than the men who are cheating on their spouses (and, interestingly, if I started a serious relationship I'm quite certain I would stop seeing these men) but I do assume my own responsibilities. I commented elsewhere, and I'll say again – I believe the fact that these men were seeking out extramarital affairs does factor in. I think I would feel much worse if it was a guy I met through work or something, or if I considered these real 'relationships'. For me they are people I am very fond of and we share one aspect of our lives together. I in no way feel like they're my boyfriends.
No, you’re not.
How the hell do you think THAT?
Let me spell this out for you…
You used AM to HOOK UP with married/taken men, yes?
You knew they were married, not in open relationships, yes?
You still slept with them anyway, yes?
Do you think you could rationalize your way out of a confrontation with one of the 4 guys wives with your stupid dribble? I doubt it. You know they’re married, you did it anyway. And since you know, YOURE CULPABLE.
God, you disgust me.
Exactly! I don't feel guilty at all for sleeping with 3 married men. They sought me out, wrote to me, planned to meet, arranged the times, and then actually had sex with me. I didn't seduce, suggest or force anyone to do something against their will. I still think that happily married men don't seek out affairs, and as for the two persons responsible for cheating, both are IN the marriage, NOT the 3rd person.
Wow.
I didn’t think that they made women as stupid as you anymore. Rationalize all you want, you’re still an awful human being…unhappily married? How do you know? Did he tell you that? How do you know he isn’t just telling you what you need to hear in order to exonerate yourself from the responsibility of accepting your guilt from cheating with a married man?
You have shamed your gender lady. If anyone ever deserved a scarlet A, it’s you & Lucy
From a male perspective, and as someone who’s been cheated on I understand both sides of the coin, however should I chose to marry a good woman one day I wouldn’t be cheating on her.
That being said I’d have no problem hooking up with a married woman because I understand my urges as a human being and embrace them rather than oppress them, oppressing them usually does nothing for you but frustrate you, now if I hooked up w a married woman I would be doing it knowing she’s got a husband and that he’d hate to see what his precious wife was up to, and that’s what makes it exciting to me, when I was cheated on it tore my world apart and has damaged me ever since, it’s a scar I can physically feel on the inside of my stomach, there is no other way of putting it other than, i want someone else to feel that pain, or at the very least want to feel like I’ve dirtied another man’s woman the same way mine was, I don’t care about her husband, I don’t care about their relationship, I don’t even care about the women all that much until I’ve finished w her. In my eyes most men are opportunistic scumbags and I’m yet to meet another bloke who’s any different, it’s the way we’re hard wired unfortunately, and believe me I know, men talk. so it does feel good even though it’s wrong, but I don’t care that it’s wrong because I’ve already lost what I cared about. You can’t put a leash on a tiger and that’s the way I view it now, initially after I was cheated I went into a pit of depression and addiction, hooking up with married women is a lot more healthy for me than that, and until I can find someone who can regenerate my ability to feel love, i”ll carry on hurting other people because it feels good and I’m done with worrying about how others feel, when I did care it didn’t work out for me. I don’t believe in karma either, if karma really existed this kind of stuff wouldn’t happen to good people to begin with, and although i probably appear to be a nasty vicious bastard (I’m sure you’ll judge me based off of this extremely honest but relatively small paragraph, just like you’ve done to the women who sleep w married men in here), maybe I am a nasty vicious bastard now, back then I wasn’t. We’re all damaged people in some way or another and we all reflect it differently, some people less than others. We’re animals with animalistic chemistry, don’t let the word “human” fool you. I own the fact that this is wrong though, and I think it’s wrong no matter who’s doing the cheating, but that doesn’t stop it from feeling good. Why don’t you try walking a mile in a homewrecker’s shoes? you wouldn’t want to, not talking about the sex but rather the series of events that leads up to this kind of behaviour to begin with. We’re damaged people, whether we’re willing to admit it or not. Sex drive is irrational, feelings are irrational, there is no such thing as a rational sex drive, and so it leads us to do “irrational” things, plenty of people have odd fetishes for the same reason, the damage manifests itself in different ways.
I am currently dating a man I met through Ashley Madison. In fact we're celebrating our year "anniversary" this coming weekend.
I know that many other people will judge, but no one truly knows what goes on in another relationship or how they would react/handle it until they're in that place themselves.
My boyfriend (and yes, we do refer to each other as boyfriend and girlfriend) is in a classic loveless marriage. He and his wife have a child, and they haven't shared a bedroom or a bed since the child was born – going on 10 years now. He said they have tried counseling, but their hearts just weren't in it. He is discreet and continues to be a public "couple" with her among their circle of friends on their side of town, which is what she wants. In return, he takes "me time" as a late night out each week plus the occasional weekend, which is when we see each other. They are good friends, but other than the couple/family time, they have completely separate lives. They are very much in don't ask/don't tell mode.
Most of my friends simply know that I'm dating someone with a young child, which complicates the schedule. 2 of my very closest friends and their husbands know the truth and it is with them that we sometimes go out to dinner with or go hang out at their house for an evening.
He has said that he cannot contemplate divorce until his child is at least in high school and I'm ok with that. Will the relationship last forever? Who knows. For right now it works for both of us.
"My boyfriend is in a classic loveless marriage. He and his wife have a child, and they haven't shared a bedroom or a bed since the child was born – going on 10 years now."
According to… him? Consider the source of this information carefully. This is a man practiced in lying at least several times a week on his whereabouts / activities to the person he's married to and the mother of his child. If he's lying to her that well, imagine how well he's lying to you.
I've been to his home. He and his wife live on different sides of the house. You can't fake an entire bedroom, closets full of clothes, and bathroom items (makeup, shampoo, etc.). You can't fake making a room/bathroom look lived in and regularly used. It's very obvious that she has her side of the house and he has his.
Hate to break it to you but my husband and I have 'separate' stuff too and we are very much together. We have enough room to each have our own bathroom (I am a major product junkie who likes a girly bathroom). There's also no way his stuff would fit in the master closet with all my clothes. Here's a zinger too – he sleeps often in the guest bedroom because he gets up at 4:30 for work and I'm one of those people who can't go back to sleep in the morning.
What you think you saw means nothing. I'm guessing you haven't spoken to the wife who should be a-ok with this as they've supposedly been separated for 10 years?! Tell yourself why that hasn't happened and then think about that child of theirs and give your head a shake.
Anon, I don't wish to argue with you and want to leave you with a few ideas. You say "no one truly knows what goes on in another relationship". You must accept the same is true for him and his wife. You really do not know what is going on with them, or what he is telling her.
The cliche of the loveless marriage and women saying he's going to leave his wife for me one day, is a cliche for a reason – it happens a lot and it's usually a lie.
There is an expression I like which is "We accept the love we think we deserve". You have been in a relationship now for over a year which you cannot tell all your friends and family about. It doesn't sound like you've met or been accepted by his family (and friends?). You will inevitably continue to only see each other for a very short amount of time in a given week, particularly for people who have been dating a year. If you viewed it objectively and pretended you were your daughter, best friend, sister, etc., what would you tell them? Would you want this for the person you cared about? Or would you want a healthy open relationship with no lies, no hiding and good future prospects?
I was wrong. You go lower than even Lucy, simply because there is a child involved.
Your a horrible freaking person.
Here’s to hoping karma pays you back IN FULL in the future. Ever wonder why your boyfriend hasn’t left his wife yet? It’s because he doesn’t want too. You’re so stupid….
Background on me: I believe in monogamy. I've only been with my husband, and a huge part of my life and effort and heart goes into keeping it that way (physically, mentally, emotionally). It makes me physically sick to think about adultery. If Lucy had just said she was sleeping with 4 men, that would be enough to make my brain hurt (it all seems so unnecessarily complicated- how would I even keep up with all the details and who liked what and… sigh), adding in the marriage aspect and I can't handle it. So. Can't comment on Lucy's experiences respectfully, so I won't.
But I will say this. I think it's one thing to cheat, and be part of a relationship with someone who's cheating, and it's another thing to seek that out specifically. My question (that I probably don't want the answer to) to Lucy would be why is a service like Ashley Madison the answer to a more exciting sex life? My general question to the world would be why do sites like Ashley Madison exist? I know AM is not responsible for adultery, but it's set up to facilitate affairs, and why do we need help with that?
an observation on AM: it's free for women to use? Hmmm… some interesting gender issues to wrestle with there…
EXACTLY @somtimessheblogs – Thank you!
Oh gracious. I relate to this is SO many ways.
I've been the 'other woman' and yes it is exhilarating, it is exciting because they're not supposed to like you, to want you and certainly not act on it. The fact that they then do makes it all the more flattering and gives you more confidence. It's really easy to justify to yourself that what you're doing isn't wrong, because after all, you're not the one that's cheating. Right?
However, I think you can't avoid that fact that without your consent, and the consent of all the "other women" out there, these men wouldn't be able to cheat, even if they want to be which would save so many women and relationships. Perhaps a lot of the issues that make people cheat (because women do it too) would be solved if cheating, and satisfying their needs elsewhere wasn't so easy to do.
My father cheated on my mother, and so they divorced when I was around 12, so I was young enough to be upset by it and old enough to understand what 'having an affair' meant. I remember how completely destroyed my mother was, but I don't blame my father for cheating. I blame him for not confronting his issues with the relationship instead. I don't believe in 'staying together for the kids', I truly believe that if you're unhappy, and you can't work things out, you should leave.
I've been cheated on myself, and yes it is heartbreaking, and I did blame the other girl at the time, but in retrospect there were more things wrong with that relationship that just the cheating. Clearly he felt that too if not more so, due to the fact that he was the one to cheat.
I've also been the one that did the cheating. Each time, it was because whilst I liked/loved that person too much to leave them, I didn't like/love them enough to be faithful to them. That was my own bad decision, and I now truly look back in regret for being such a coward.
So, I guess you have to ask yourself before dating a married/involved person – would you cheat yourself? If that answer is no – then don't go there.
If you wouldn't rob a bank why would you help someone else do it? Does 'only being the accomplice' make you any less guilty?
Oh man, I had to wait a second to reply, because this really stirred up something nasty in me.
I’m a psychology student and I’ve studied infidelity A LOT. I want to reply in a way that not attacking you, but I'm definitely going to counter your beliefs, way of thinking, and your whys. It might get a little ugly. Whether you choose to use what I have to say an attack or as an opposing view to use for some introspection, it is up to you.
*super long comment cause I quoting you
“As far as I know, I haven’t been cheated on, and I’ve never cheated on a boyfriend in any way.”
——I have no doubt you never felt the betrayal of being cheated on, because if you have, you would never have inflicted it on someone else. You have never been hurt or harmed or had your heart broken or been deceived to the point you thought your sanity, world-view, perception of reality, perception of yourself was about to shatter.
“…I realized that, after putting it on the back burner for a long time, I wanted a more exciting sex life. A big part of the turn on and excitement of sex for me has been to be strongly desired by my lovers…
——-You decided you wanted a more exciting sex life, which included having no respect for pre-existing monogamous relationships? What YOU want trumps the respect and feelings of the wives, kids and marriage in general. You could have easily gotten this fun sex life from single men who desired you with no strings. But I’m not surprised because the pattern I recognized with mistresses like you are they are either sociopaths with no empathy and shame, they are really selfish self centered people who aren’t in touch with reality, or people with really low self-esteem and would do anything to feel desirable. In their minds they must be really desirable if they are chosen over the spouse right? “They forsake the one they said vows to and married for me!! I must be special” There is something very scary about people who are willing to stomp over others to get whatever they want out of life. People who are able to completely destroy someone else for e bit of fun. You are an accomplice.
“ I didn’t expect to wind up seeing four different men, but it’s true what they say – all the good ones are married! I was only on AM for about 3 weeks and I spoke to so many great men, I couldn’t choose just one!”
——-You think these are good men? You may think you have the best of him, but really you were accepting the worst of him. His lies, his deception, his neediness. You’d be amazed (but not really) how many of these guys lie through their teeth about their situations and who they are.
“I wouldn’t say I prefer it, it’s just something I’m experiencing right now. I have told all my lovers that if I meet a guy I really care about (and I am dating single guys too) that they’re getting kicked to the curb, and they all understand!”
——So these relationships really mean nothing to you that you’d easily discard them when you feel they no longer work out? These marriages you are stepping into without the consent of both parties, that may mean something to these women, and mean nothing to you. You really have no feelings on it?
“ I honestly do think that sometimes cheating can help a relationship (so long as the one being cheated on doesn’t find out) because it can make the person feel generally happier, less frustrated, etc, which has an effect on every area of their life.“
——I think this is incredibly false and delusional. I believe in truth above all else. That's one of my universal values. I also believe a marriage / relationship is between 2 people. When you take those vows, you agree to protects your relationship from all outside forces and not to let anyone in, unless YOU BOTH agree it’s what you want. When one person does that without the other its betrayal, pain and simple, no gray areas or result can change that duck from being a duck.
——-You are also stealing this person’s reality. They are the butt of the joke of their own marriage. Could you possibly imagine how that must feel? They are in a relationship where they truly don't have all the facts. They are making decisions without being truly aware of what is going on in their lives
——–Short-term false adrenaline happiness, and stress relief are not the only results of infidelity. STDs, broken families, betrayal, other children, are some of the other nice benefits too!
“It’s hard to know because it would depend on the circumstances. I’m sure I would be very upset no matter what the circumstances, but if our relationship had significant other problems or I had completely withdrawn from it (emotionally, sexually, whatever) I think it would be more understandable. “
——No, I truly believe that it still isn’t okay even then. When you take vows, you promise to WORK on your relationship. You either get into marriage counseling and fix what’s wrong, compromise, change the agreement, or end the relationship, but you don't get to be a cake eater. You don't get to act like everything is okay in your marriage when it really isn’t. When you get married you promised to share, have intimacy and truth and compromise. You don't get to be selfish in a relationship. If you want to be selfish, you leave the relationship.
——-I can also assure you if it happened to you you’d be devastated.
“One thing I think I have learned is that it is possible to distinguish different parts of our lives – just as we can have many friends without diminishing the value of each of them, it’s also possible to have multiple lovers – enjoying your time with one doesn’t mean the other intrinsically suffers.”
———I also believe this is false. Look up the psychological term compartmentalization. It is NOT healthy when you can compartmentalize you life like that. And even for some relationships, whatever is given to you is taken from the marriage.
———-You obviously don't know what goes on in the marriage, but you know why so many married people get caught? Its because the extreme deterioration of the marriage and the betrayed spouse cant figure out why, so they start snooping. And even if the relationships don't suffer, the foundation of trust and truth are completely destroyed. It’s only a matter of time before the relationship crumbles.
If you’re still reading this post after all that, I implore you to check out the site surviving infidelity. Read what the people who have been cheated on say. Even look at what the remorseful cheaters have to say. Truly understand what you are dealing with and getting yourself into.
They talk about how it was the most painful thing they ever been through in their lives, how much their husbands lied, deceived and betrayed them. You will also read how it wasn't the sex but it was the lying and going behind their back when they could have talked about it. You may have a hard time sympathizing but this may help.
Also think about the consequences. Of all the things that can happen when the truth is revealed. Not just the devastations but how when you hurt someone, they CAN hurt you back. ( you seems really into yourself so if nothing I said registered this may be what makes you think) On the site love shack, there is an other women forum and the betrayed spouses can destroy your life for destroying theirs. Telling your workplace, family,posting you on cheater websites.
Ultimately, am I judging you? Yes. Yes I am. Today I am okay judging those who harm others and their families and still muddle through life without the least bit of remorse or empathy for the pain and devastation they (can) cause themselves, innocent spouses and their children because they needed to feel more alive and desired in their sad, lonely world.
I’m sure liveletlive has graduated with her psychology degree by now and I do wonder if she is demoralizing and judging every one of her patients. I’m a psychotherapist myself and without knowing the root cause of any problem you do not attack and diagnose somebody just from what you read from one brief interview.
There are many you will meet whose problems will shock you and you are there to help them not send them home feeling like the end of the world is upon them.
No. I think she’s just judging Lucy.
Who deserves it.
Don’t think so?
Let’s talk to the wives of the 4 guys she’s cheated with and see what they think!
You've articulated exactly everything I was thinking as well. This was excellent and very well written. I hope "Lucy" takes your words to heart. Thank you very much for taking the time to share your perspective.
Thank you for such well-thought out responses! <3
theres so much i'd like to say. but as i have a tendancy to ramble, i'll leave it as this; as a woman who's marriage broke down as a result of cheating, i'm really thankful, after reading this interview, to read this comment. to have faith restored that not every one will cheat, nor is everyone willing to get involved with someone already in a relationship. basically, if a relationship isn't working, theres no good enough reason to stay. you get out, you don't cheat. you never cheat. ever.
You nailed it liveletlive. Thank you for taking the time to articulate why this is destructive..to so *many* on so many different levels.
well said.
Nailed it.
Nailed it? I guess if you want to alienate people by being extremely judgmental, then yeah, she nailed it. Gigi upthread may feel the same way, but expressed it a lot more respectfully. I don't agree with Lucy's life choices, either, but I wouldn't call her a delusional sociopath.
Only difference? Gigi was nicer.
In dealing with cheaters, you don’t have to be nice. The aren’t after all.
Exactly liveletlive. Truly, the mental gymnastics people have to go through to justify doing what they know is intrinsically wrong is something to behold. The most painful lies are not the ones others tell us, but the ones we tell ourselves.
Eventually, it will all catch up with you, and I don't mean karma or the afterlife – both cheaters will eventually pay a high price for their actions in one way or another.
Wow-so true liveletlive. A dear person in my life is going through the experience of being the one that was cheated on. He was willing to work on the marriage, but she wanted out and has left. The crazy part? She cried constantly when she told him and said, "You are a good man, and I can't believe I'm doing this to you." She mentally knew how awful it was, but she had played around with the forbiddeness of this sexual relationship with another man, and it had grabbed her. This kind of thing ALWAYS takes you farther than you wanted to go and keeps you farther than you wanted to stay. Can we stop pretending that sex is just sex? There are some soul tie issues that come with sex, which is why monogamy is the only way.
If you really cared about the people at all that you are willingly cheat with, you would actually want to help them in their marriages. Having sex with them is not helping them in their marriages. Throwing sex around assumes that people can turn off their hearts and simply act. Actions connect to our hearts. You cannot have sex without having some sort of extra connection.
This woman that I know that has left her husband has a complete separation from reality. She is totally fine with things that she never would have been before, and she is making foolish decisions in other areas of her life. There is a complete focus on herself and a total blocking out of all of the other people in her life that have been affected by her decisions. She doesn't seem to care that young girls who looked up to her are now confused and feel like they have lost a mentor; they don't even know her anymore.
When you cheat, you set up constant insecurity for yourself for the rest of your life. If someone was willing to cheat with you, what will keep them from cheating with someone else later? If someone is willing to date you (a cheater), what makes you think that they will remain committed to you?
Perfect.
I’ve been seeing men off Ashley Madison for a few years on and off. I’m a 33 year old professional female. I’ve been single for a few years, had a normal childhood, been cheated on, and was a late bloomer. I’ve been happy with it for a few reasons…
1. It’s fun and exciting…I know it’s not a relationship and will be short term. It’s just NSA in nice hotels, with good dinners and drinks every now and then. As pathetic as this sounds, it’s often like a little vacation for me even though it never lasts more than a few hours.
2. I don’t admit this often but I was born with a sort of jacked up uterus which makes sex often painful for me. I’ve actually had normal monogamous relationships end from it even when sharing this with men. Yes, I’ve consulted with doctors about this and have had procedures done to see if I have fertility problems and female disorders. I rarely have had sex with most men on AM in the traditional sense…I basically go as far as you can get without penetration.
3. I know I will get a lot of hate for this but I will still share. I’m super turned on being intimate with older, married men. I found out being with much older men (40s-50s) that they just sexually want to please and appreciate a younger woman. Younger men generally are overly confident and believe that stamina and youth is everything but it isn’t to me. Oh yeah I should mention I totally lie about my age. I say I’m 26. Men seem to also like the cliched college student who works part time lol.
Yes, I know I am a horrible person and will get comments like karma is a bitch etc, but I’m having fun on the site. I know this is rationalizing it as well, but I know these men would just be meeting up with other women if not me.
Though my family is not religious, I've always been taught that monogamy IS The Way, yet almost every relationship that has orbited my life has ended or been complicated by someone outside of the relationship. When I was younger, before I had adult relationships of my own, I thought cheating was black and white, but as I experience life I can empathize with how it happens. (Though I haven't personally ever cheated or helped someone cheat–or been cheated on, to my knowledge.) Right now as I'm sadly coming to the end of a 6 year relationship with someone I love very much and accessing relationships in general, I'm beginning to wonder if society's emphasis on monogamy is the real problem. I don't think monogamy needs to be for everyone, but I DO think honesty should. I've heard interviews and read articles about polyamorous relationships and I'm not sure if it's something I'd like to be a part of or not, but what I do like about the thought of an 'open' relationship is the honesty, respect, and openness. If someone I was in a relationship with came to me before anything happened and said they were starting to feel attracted to another person and wanted to have an open discussion about why this was happening and what we could do about it–how could I not have respect for that? The thing that makes me feel sick about 'cheating' is the thought of looking someone in the eye and telling them a lie. I wish giving and receiving radical honesty was a more acceptable part of our culture. I think, though it might be hard to say/hear at first, it would save a ton of heartache and doubt in the long run. While I think what Lucy and these men are doing are not the best solution for their problems, maybe sites like AM will start discussions about honesty and bring to the forefront that you're not 'broken' if monogamy doesn't feel right to you.
Ash,
I really think you nailed it when you said that honesty is the heart of the issue. Betrayal has to do with broken trust–and what that trust means is different for different people, in different relationships. Betraying your partner doesn't have to mean having sex! …and, having sex with someone outside the relationship is not necessarily a betrayal. It all depends on the "contract" you and your partner have (both explicitly stated, and implied).
Where I think it gets really messy is if both partners don't really understand or know what they want, or what they are okay with, deep down–or if the communication between them is flawed. A few years ago, I really believed that I'd be fine with an open relationship, but found myself devastated when my boyfriend expressed interest in someone else. I wasn't mature enough, or in touch enough with my own beliefs and values and desires, to be able to identify and express what my true feelings–and my expectations for the relationship–were.
The thing that is haunting me about Lucy's story is how lying is at the center of all of these relationships. The first time I read it through, I kept expecting the next section to answer the question of how these men's wives felt about the affairs–or, at least, directly addressing whether or not they even knew. Heck, I would be less bothered than I am now if these men were openly defying their wives and sleeping around without their consent–but *with their knowledge*! At least then, these women would be given the dignity of knowing the truth, and being able to act accordingly. Keeping them in the dark is a power trip! Ultimately, I believe that although it might be heartbreaking to have someone do something that hurts you, the thing that really damages our sense of dignity and humanity is to be treated like a second-class citizen who "can't handle the truth."
–R.S.
(Incidentally, "can't handle the truth" usually means "would react in a way that I don't want them to." Doesn't sound so nice when you put it that way.)
I really appreciated this perspective. If men are partnered with women who are no longer interested in sex, why shouldn't they seek it elsewhere? It doesn't mean they don't love their wives or want to be with them. Don't we all have friends who meet our emotional needs in a way that is different from the way we feel with our boyfriend or spouse? I love my boyfriend but I wouldn't trade my girlfriends for anything in the world.
No one person can fulfill all of our needs, and each person is in their own unique situation, complete with all the complexities of the human experience.
The reason they shouldn't seek sex elsewhere is if fidelity/exclusivity is something they have agreed to. If they are able to have an open, honest dialogue with their partner where they explain that they don't feel like their needs are being met, and mutually agree to an open relationship, more power to them.
If, however they are lying to their spouses and exposing them unknowingly to health risks as well as the devastation that can come from that kind of a betrayal of trust, then they are just behaving like dishonest, selfish, cowards.
I agree with this comment wholeheartedly – Thank you for articulating exactly what I was thinking.
Come on, Sarah. Yes and Yes is so much better than this.
Anon,
The True Story series is about hearing different people's approaches to life and asking the questions we usually 'can't' ask because it's not socially appropriate. For me, this is a topic that falls under that heading.
I'm with Sarah. This was interesting (depressing? infuriating?) to read and isn't a common perspective to which we all have access. I look forward to this series when I see it in my reader (and clearly popped over to see the comments for this one!)
I'm also with Sarah. These are realities that I (and I expect most of us) don't get exposed to – It's great to have a forum where our worldview gets challenged just a little. We don't have to agree with a perspective or reality that's presented, but they do exist and are equally legitimate realities. I think we are all better people for engaging with each other with respect and intent, and learning the others' viewpoints rather than stay in our isolated bubbles.
Personally, I found this to be one of the most interesting True Stories.
Thanks! I never expected to be in this situation, but it is something that is out there and I thought Sarah's readers might find it interesting.
Another world I've entered – and one you might want to seek out for another interview, Sarah – is the world of BDSM which is FASCINATING! There is so much more going on out there than most people would know!
I really love this blog, and have met Sarah and she's a gem. In some ways I kind of agree that this space shouldn't entertain stuff like this. But it's not my space, and it's okay that Sarah has her own ideas for what to post. I actually think the more we talk about sexual brokenness, the more we can bring healing and truth. Dark stuff survives because it lives in the dark. Maybe reading these comments by articulate, kind women will inspire Lucy to alter her choices.
I wrote a reply earlier, and then the story stuck with me during the day. I am wondering if Lucy is a real person – many of the things she says are right off the Ashley Madison commercials and promotional flyers (her self-description, justification of cheating, description of the men, mentioning it is free for women). I feel like I have just read a story from the AM marketing/promotional department, and not a real person's story with more depth and insight.
Anon, I can tell you that Lucy has her own blog and a 'real-sounding' email address. Her blog contains little-to-no mentions or links to Ashley Madison and it's not designed in such a way (or has the following) that would make one think it's part of some gorilla marketing campaign. I've emailed her to let her know her interview is up and invite her to respond to comments 🙂
I got that vibe too! It definitely read like marketing to me. Thanks for confirming, Sarah.
Yup, totally a real person!
I always read these 'True Story' posts, but have never responded. Much like most of the other commenters, I really implore Lucy to take another look at this situation. At least three of the wives are having THEIR choices taken away from them, because their husband and Lucy have decided that they know better than she. I will even go so far as to question how truthful the man in the "open marriage" is being. I'd be willing to bet that his wife isn't as aware of her open marriage as Lucy may have been led to believe.
My father cheated on my mother with multiple women. Some that he literally met at diners while he was traveling. The kicker was when he slept with my 19 year old babysitter. I was 6 when she caught them, the whole sordid trail of women came out, and she divorced him. My mom then underwent heavy STD testing because she truly didn't know who she'd been sleeping with, by proxy.
I will say this, as painful as their divorce was (it was UGLY), it ultimately was the best thing that happened to my mother and I. Their marriage was toxic…. because of him, not my mom.
I've said all of the above, to say the following….
1) Lucy and other mistresses really have no clue (or they are just selfishly ignoring it) how devastating their actions can be to not just the wives, but the children. Neither deserve it…. they haven't consented to have their lives ripped apart.
2) Regardless of what the man says about how awful the wife is, HE is the one being unfaithful. HE is the one who is making the decision to throw away his marriage.
3) My mom didn't want to married to a man who slept with other women. She had a RIGHT to make that decision for herself, just as the four wives of the men in this post have a RIGHT to decide for themselves what they want. Plenty of women have decided to stay in a marriage, knowing their husbands slept with other women. Regardless of the decision, they have a right to be able to make it.
What stands out to me is 'it ultimately was the best thing that happened to my mother and I'
Lots of people get married for the wrong reasons. Lots of people get married for the right reasons and things change. If a relationship is perfect the vast majority of people won't cheat.
A thought – if someone is considering leaving a relationship because something in it is missing or unfulfilling (in the present case, sex) should they leave, destroy the family, and then see if adding in that aspect makes them happy? Or is it maybe okay to try it out, and if it doesn't make things better (for instance there are other underlying issues) stay in the marriage and try to find other ways to make it work?
I'm not trying to say I'm doing a good deed or anything of the sort – I am sleeping with these men for purely selfish reasons – but I think this perspective may be valid.
Again, that perspective is completely one-sided and strips the other person in the relationship of their right to choose whether or not they are comfortable with having their partner explore sex outside of the relationship. It displays a total lack of respect for the other person in the relationship and, if sexual exclusivity is something the people in the relationship agreed to, it's a total breach of trust.
There are not only two options in this situation. It's not only A. Leave and destroy the family or B. Lie to and cheat on your partner. There is a third option. Have the (yes, maybe difficult) honest conversation with your partner about how things aren't working for you and why, and work together to figure out what the best solution for both of you is.
If that's not something you're capable of, then you really do need to leave, because you are not equipped to be in a relationship if you're not capable of having a difficult conversation and being honest with your partner when the need arises.
Cheating isn't a solution to anything. It's an ineffective bandaid and a cowardly escape.
Late in replying to Lucy… But, no, it isn't ok to "try out" another way if that way includes lying and cheating. Why should the person get to "try out" a different life and then decide they like the one they have, all on their own? It is completely disrespectful of the other person in the relationship.
Like Anon said, have an honest, open, and probably difficult discussion with their spouse/partner. Grow up and be honest. Or, get out. But, don't think that any favors are being done by taking someone else for a test drive, without your partner's knowledge or consent.
Honestly, in my view, Ashley Madison is an extension of the rape culture we live in. Let me be clear – rape culture is not just about rape. No one is getting raped here in this story. But rape CULTURE is a culture where sexual activity is condoned without the consent of everyone involved. It is destructive.
No one gets to have sex with other people without the consent of everyone that sex directly affects. Anything without full consent is wrong. And here, the sex directly affects the women who agreed to a monogamous relationship, and they have not consented.
It doesn't matter, even a little, if you believe that people weren't "built" for monogamy (I'd argue we weren't built for avoiding stealing and killing either, yet we do – so talking about people are imposing their own morals is ridiculous – everyone imposes their morals somewhere, but that's a separate issue).
What matters is that if someone agrees to monogamy, the other person has a right to know if their agreement is not being honored (especially considering the health, familial, and financial consequences). If you want to take love completely out of the equation – if you make a contract with someone, it doesn't matter what that contract is or whether other people think it's fair or right. It matters that you agreed to it. If you want to negotiate the terms, you need to go to the other party and negotiate.
These men don't have a right to violate the contract without notifying the other party. It is wrong to have sex without the full consent of everyone involved. It is hurtful to men and women everywhere to continue to live in a world where men (and women) are rewarded for seeking sex without consent. That is what rape culture is built on. It needs to stop.
" if someone is considering leaving a relationship because something in it is missing or unfulfilling (in the present case, sex) should they leave, destroy the family, and then see if adding in that aspect makes them happy? Or is it maybe okay to try it out, and if it doesn't make things better (for instance there are other underlying issues) stay in the marriage and try to find other ways to make it work? "
That's like saying it's okay for me to steal a Mercedes and test it out to see if I really want to go back and buy it. No. That's not how it works. You honor your agreements. If you want to test something out, you go to the person who you made your agreement with and you work out a testing period. End of story. Full stop.
Anything you are unwilling to disclose to close friends should be examined very, very carefully for WHY you wouldn't want to tell friends.
Absolutely! She claims that her friends would not understand, however the truth is more likely that they would understand perfectly: Lucy is doing something wrong and she doesn't care about the devastation that may result. Of course she wants to hide that from people. This post made me really sad – both for the innocent kids and the cheated on spouses who haven't been given a fair choice. I think people should treat each other better than this, and I think Ashley Madison is a disgusting organization.
Oh, I definitely know that what I'm doing isn't 'right' or 'okay' – same reason most people wouldn't tell their parents over Sunday brunch 'so I tried heroin last night! It was awesome!'
So then why do something you know isn't "right" or "okay?"
Hey, 'Lucy' here! I expected that my interview would get some strong reactions, and I want to thank everyone who has written for keeping their comments reasonably respectful (I didn't think Sarah's readers would be of the 'u bitch u shuld go str8 to hell' ilk, but you never know.)
I'm just going to kind of respond generally to the comments, because many of them are expressing their own opinions on the issues, but if there are any specific questions, feel free to comment more and I'll consider them.
First of all, I want everyone to know that I in no way think that what I am doing is a joke, or no big deal. I know it’s a big deal. I know that there are real people’s emotions and lives at stake. I honestly can’t explain why I’m okay with doing this – intellectually I know it’s not okay, and I completely understand every argument against cheating, and a year ago I would have agreed with them. For some reason I’m okay with it. I can’t really explain it. I guess we’ve all done things in our lives that we don’t quite understand (dating the guy who treats us badly, going into careers we don’t like because our parents want us to, etc.) and this is mine.
A couple people have commented that I don’t know if my lovers are telling me the truth and that I only have one side of the story. Very true. My explanations in the interview are based on things I’ve been told together with things I’ve gleaned from my experiences with these guys. I believe them because the stories make sense and there’s not much of a reason to lie, but they could very well be untrue. The fact remains that I’m not looking for a justification to do this. I don’t think to myself ‘well, Sir’s wife is frigid, so this is okay’. I just think ‘I enjoy what I’m doing with Sir’.
I know that lives can be torn apart by this, and I very much don’t want anyone to be hurt. I am therefore extremely careful, for instance I never initiate text message conversations in case they’re with their family – I don’t want anyone to see a message flash up on a cell phone screen by accident. While I understand that there is always a physical risk when people are having sex, I have a 100% no tolerance condom rule. I know it’s not foolproof, but it’s pretty good. I also have been tested for STIs regularly. Also, I am not looking for relationships with any of these men. I’m fond of them all and I enjoy our time together, but there are no ‘I want you to leave your wife’ conversations. To the contrary, I’m legitimately happy for them when things are going well with their wives. A and his wife have an up and down sex life and I’m thrilled for him when I hear that they’re in one of their ‘ups’!
This is not in any way a justification, but I also think the fact that I met these men on a cheating website does factor in. These aren’t guys I met at work or a club and lured in with my siren song. These are men that decided they wanted to cheat, went on a website, filled out a profile, bought ‘credits’ with real money and started to communicate with women for the express purpose of cheating. Not that it makes things okay, of course, but I do think it should be noted.
I contacted Sarah because I’m a big fan of her site. I never expected myself to be in this situation, but there are surprisingly a lot of people doing this out there and I thought it might be interesting for others to read about!
There seems to be a real disconnect to what you're saying here. You say you understand that lives can be torn about by the actions you are a very direct part of, yet you say you don't want anyone to be hurt. So why risk it? Is the sex just that spectacular or is there just a thrill in thinking you've got one up on another woman because she's being fooled and you believe you're in on the secret and not being fooled yourself?
My specific question for you though is where do you draw your line?
Would you be able to feel as ok as you do now about sleeping with a man if it turned out you knew his wife? If she was a lovely acquaintance or a friend of yours? Or is it because the women who are being lied to and stand to be hurt by your actions are an abstract concept to you, because you assume you'll never have to actually see or deal with their pain should their lives be, as you say, torn apart by this despite your skill at helping to fool them with your careful texting rules, that you're able to feel ok about being complicit in lying and cheating?
I agree, there definitely is a disconnect. I don't fully understand this myself! I have looked myself in the mirror many times and thought 'what are you doing? Don't you know people can get hurt?' and I keep doing it. I don't believe that what I'm doing is intrinsically 'wrong' but I do know that there can be very serious consequences. At some point I'm sure I will stop. At this point I'm only seeing one of my lovers with regularity but they're all still in my life in some way.
While your question about where I draw the line is a little scathing, that definitely would be where the line is drawn. Right or wrong, these women and children are abstract concepts to me. Quite honestly it's not something I think about. It's like anyone else you know in one part of your life – when you talk to a co-worker you may know they have a spouse and children, you may even know their spouse and children, but when you're chatting with them about the movie you saw this weekend you're not thinking 'I wonder if their husband was with them when they saw it' It's just a non-issue. Right or wrong, awful or not (I'm guessing most people think wrong and awful!) it's just the way I feel. If I met their wives…honestly if it was just a brief meeting, a 'hello, how are you' I might find it a thrill. If I got to know them (I can't imagine a situation where this would happen) I would probably call it off.
Interesting. So it really does boil down to you not being able/willing to feel empathy for or extend some compassion towards women and children you don't personally know.
I'm also curious to know why you chose Ashley Madison as opposed to one of the other umpteen dating/match sites that offer an option for single people who are just looking for "no strings attached" sex. Surely there are plenty of single guys not looking for a relationship who could provide you with the attention you're looking for and "desire you" in the way you crave. God knows I encountered my fair share of them during my foray into the world of online dating. Why sign up for a service where there are all damn kinds of strings to get tangled up in, in the form of these men's lies to their families?
Lucy I appreciate you sharing with us your experience. You don't "owe it" to the internet to talk about this, so I guess I should say thanks for at least chancing to put this out there. I applaud you for being open about your lack of clarity on this issue in places.
Here's my thought: Your actions are centered on your own self. I am not saying this in a judgy, YouTube-commenter "ur so selfcenterd" kind of way. But you said right there above – you're only thinking about how it feels for you. The women are abstractions to you. And you said yourself, if they ceased to become abstractions, you would stop.
Does that not bother you? That you are okay inflicting something on someone else as long as you don't have to see it up close? Honestly to me that comes from the same human place as the ability to order the death, torture, or displacement of other humans – when we're detached from suffering we aren't too bothered by it.
I find that a bit shocking, to be honest, and worse than the cheating itself.
What do you call a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience…. that is the definition of a sociopath.
Goodness, I have too many thoughts on this, but I don't feel like typing them all. Also, Lucy likely won't change her mind on this anyway, so what's the point? I just want to echo that it is INCREDIBLY important that you continue to use protection…I'd say with oral sex too! It sounds like you're exposing yourself to TONS of sexual partners and that is the part that creeps me out the most here.
If my husband came home and gave me HIV or herpes, I dunno what I'd do. I just keep thinking of how angry Janet Jackson was in "For Colored Girls." Janet was NOT happy. Just a thought. Lol.
I too have experienced being cheated on and it is the thing that once you experience it you have zero tolerance for the people that do it. I realized over time though that people always say its about sex, and finding a person with a compatible sex drive, and the excitement of it and blah blah blah, but in the case of both my partner, the other woman and everyone else I know who's ever knowingly cheated, its not about the sex, its about insecurities, emotional problems, depression and whatever else. People that cheat are very sad pathetic people who are looking to augment their unhappiness in any way possible. Its the same reason people become alcoholics or get into drugs. And one of the biggest things unhappy people do is seek to blame everyone around them for their unhappiness. That's how you get these men saying its their wives and girlfriends faults, because they don't have the courage to look within and realize that its no ones fault but their own that they are unhappy.
I have no respect for anyone involved in cheating, even if you are the third party, and instead I feel sorry for you, because you must have a truly sad life if you need to do something like that to feel good about yourself.
I've played every part of the cheating fiasco at some point in my life (cheater, cheatee, and third party mistress), and ugh, I'm so glad I'm out of that, and I sure hope it's never in my life again.
I would love Lucy to address why she specifically focused on married men on Ashley Madison. Also, now that she's into things with a dom, does she foresee leaving the married men behind and focusing on getting her kicks in the BSDM world instead (sorry, I don't even know the acronym lol).
Also, I'm really enjoying this great conversation that's remained quite respectful. Go Yes and Yes readers!
This is heartbreaking. I know I'm not the usual demographic of reader here: I'm a very strong Christian, but I also define myself as open minded and feminist to a certain extent. As I read this interview my heart broke for Lucy:
-When you decide to engage in a sexual or emotionally inappropriate relationship with a married man you are contributing (50%) to breaking that marriage commitment/covenant and hurting a family (not just the wife, the children, the extended family). How do you feel about knowing that you may be hurting the wives and/or children in these families? These people are not abstract, they are living, breathing, and they are hoping/expecting their husbands and fathers to be faithful men.
-If you're okay being alone, why are you seeking out relationships with married men? To me (and I'm not expert on this issue) it sends up a few red flags. Are you seeking relationships with married men because you've given up hope in finding someone that like you said loves you as much as you love them?
-If you were really comfortable with what you were doing why not share with close friends? Certainly no one needs to share every detail of their personal lives with their community, but it's another red flag to me that you're not choosing to be authentic with those close to you. Do you want to be found out? I guess I wondering if you really wanted to keep it secret why you'd agree to interview on this blog.
-How do you think your future husband might feel about this part of your sexual history? If you're so sure you can stop, why don't you?
I guess in my opinion what I'm reading here is someone who is hurting. And that's okay. I hope you can someday understand how destructive, selfish, and serious your choices are. I hope you can get to the bottom of your pain and hurt and find solace for that instead of having sex with married men and contributing to breaking apart families and society. I want you to know there is another option, this doesn't have to be part of your story. I won't go into personal faith stuff in this comment section, but you can e-mail me if you'd like to: [email protected]
There is so much sexual brokenness in our world and I have such a difficult time with websites like Ashley Madison and men and women who choose to break their wedding vows or those of others. People deserve so much better than this.
Creole Wisdom, I agree with you 100% and have no religious affiliation (atheist, yo!). I think you brought up an interesting point. She / people who do this may get married one day it will absolutely be painful for their future partner to hear this stuff. I'm not saying they should be judgey or slut-shame because I don't agree with judging the past of people you are supposed to love. HOWEVER, it will be very hard to assimilate this information and they will probably always wonder if this person will cheat again since it was done so easily in the past. It's particularly troublesome when you have Lucy here saying she doesn't understand why she's doing this. If you don't examine actions that hurt others you won't learn from them and you'll just keep hurting people.
Anyway, an interesting point you brought up that I hadn't heard before.
Hey girl, glad my faith perspective didn't scare you off! 🙂
No matter what our past sexual and relationship choices do affect our future ones. I don't believe in shaming (I don't believe that's an emotion that comes from God or Jesus, actually!) but I believe in trying to make better choices and understanding that our sexual choices affect more than the individuals actually having sex and for yeeeearrrrsssss if not decades down the road.
I don't really view it as a faith perspective per se. To me that would be more like quoting the bible or saying do this because god wants you to. Everything you said is just basic human decency. Unfortunately, some people fail to grasp that we shouldn't commit actions against one another that we could reasonably foresee will cause harm :/
Agreed 100% on your point on sexual brokeness. While my views on sexuality don't match up completely with the bible, I do see why major religions warn people about sex. It CAN and DOES ruin people's lives if they don't act with decency and thoughtfulness about it. I think you can and should find a way to have a healthy sex life where people are not getting hurt, and I don't think it takes a lot of effort. I think sex is often abused by people like drugs to avoid dealing with pain in their lives. It's sad. I just feel badly for everyone is this scenario and particularly any children.
I think we speak the same language 🙂 🙂
My perspective def. is rooted in faith and I could share verses that relate to this, but I won't.
You're so right about faiths warning people about the consequences of sexual behavior. I believe God desires all of us to have a VERY fulfilling sex life. After all, in my opinion, He's the one who designed sex in the first place. There are quite a few studies out there (and I'm not going to go out and find them, that state that Christians and specifically Christian women have the highest levels of sexual satisfaction). I also believe that it's not all about fulfilling sex, it's also about feeling safe, loved, and cared for in a relationship. I think people really settle for whatever pieces of that they can get, because let's face it: finding a partner who can give us more than a bit of that is hard to find, we're all dealing with our own junk, and it can feel discouraging.
Absolutely people use sex inappropriately like drugs or alcohol. To me, and I think many other Christians would agree, sex is not the problem at all– it's how it can be used and abused that is the problem. Sex is the most intimate act we can experience as humans which is why I feel it is so sacred and also so misused and abused.
Well put Creole Wisdom!! So true!!
Hello Creole wisdom.
Your post is thoughtful and well spoken; there is a lot Lucy seems to be ignoring or just not thinking about. Has she responded to you and answered some of your questions? I'd also like to know why Lucy has chosen to focus on married men, when there are plenty of single men in the world that can provide just sex without the 'extras' for Lucy. I think she has also forgotten the power of karma as well as the saying 'what goes around comes around.' When she does find Mr. Right and marries him; sometime down the road he will do to her what she has done to other women. I know more than one woman who ended up marring a man she 'stole' from another woman. They failed to think another woman could steal him away just as she had done; now they are both single or unhappy as karma has caught up to them.
This is SUCH an interesting (to say the least) topic and discussion. While I don't agree with Lucy's choices and actions, I think it's good she was open to sharing this side of her life. I remember hearing the CEO of Ashley Madison on a radio show once and he justified the website by saying, "People who are looking to cheat will find a way regardless if this site exists or not. This is just another way for them to do what they were going to do anyway, but with like-minded people." Do you feel that you're able to justify your relationships with these men because they are already on this site and would cheat anyway? Because I do think it's true, these men would have cheated with someone else if not you. I think that's an easy way to escape the guilt of these relationships because it puts the blame on the person doing the cheating. I have a friend who slept with a married man years ago (she was single) while on vacation. It was a one time thing but she decided to tell her fiancee before they got married. She's changed a lot since then and I know she'd never do it again so I was surprised that she told him. Would you share this with a future boyfriend?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKdSLsGMcnA&list=PLhZejCzDImAe7d54VIX4brt8atWzclEW0
Take the time to watch this…one of the best explanations I've heard yet.
I read this post a couple days ago, and it was interesting how at first I was just super critical in my mind of all five people in the scenario (and even of Sarah for posting it) and I just sort of felt dirty for even reading it. However, as I let it sink in that this is a huge part of the world I live in, I've come to a different takeaway from reading Lucy's story:
As a wife (married 19 years) and (often tired) mother of four children, if I want to continue to have a thriving, healthy marriage, it is not ever going to be ok to let my sex life slide to a permanent spot on the back burner.
As a single 50 year old woman with 3 married lovers who all claim to be in sexless marriages, this is the best post I have seen regarding this subject! I would not be in bed with these men if their wives were! It is all so simple, and right there for everyone to see.They would not have been on Ashley Madison looking for sex if they were getting it at home. End of story.
So it appears we have a lot of women on here. And many angry women. So probably not a lot of men even go near a blog like this. First I have to agree that bad part of cheating is the lying. And I agree that lying from a spouse in a committed relationship can be very hurtful and damaging. I know I have been there.
Unfortunately this happens all of the time. Not just a common thing but a very common thing. The not lying or even fidelity is the exception. About 80% of married people have cheated. Just think of that for a minute if you are in a room with 10 people only two have not cheated. What is the norm and what is the exception. Now I know that just because a lot of people do something does not make it right.
But at what point to we ask ourselves where is the deviancy here? Then there is the lying. The average person tells 4 lies per day. I know I know…no one on this blog ever cheated, or would be in an affair, and we all do not tell lies. That is those other lesser people right? Look around you. Open your eyes.
We were never meant to marry someone and be with them romantically in love, in the confines of a legal marriage that punishes you if you leave it for upwards of 100 years. What kind of craziness is this? What are we doing to ourselves?
Once again I implore you. Look around. Look at history. Most of society has accepted affairs outside of marriage except for our society. This is common and accepted all around the world. Even in this country it is a very recent phenomenon.
I'd encourage you to seek some better sources for your statistics. I can find zero support for your "80% of married people have cheated" claim. The highest number I can find is 41% (http://www.statisticbrain.com/infidelity-statistics/).
I don't understand the "look at history" argument, either. Okay, let's look at history. What does it include? Slavery. Racism. Genocide. All a product of human nature, happening independently in a number of cultures. Just because it's a "recent phenomenon" that we've started to condemn these things does not mean that it's some artificial stricture on humans. It means we're saying it's not okay to do things to people without their consent, period. We are becoming better at being humans.
You don't want to be in a legal monogamous marriage? Then don't agree to one! Everything has to be based on consent. Find someone who does not expect monogamy and marry them. Find one of the millions of people who you apparently think think it's okay. Marry one of them. But don't go to someone who does expect monogamy and say they shouldn't expect it – if it's what they agreed to, they deserve to know if their agreement isn't being upheld.
(Also…monogamy HAS been expected for millenia – just usually on the part of women, not usually men.)
Humans have been around for about 200,000 years like we are now. For that period of time. We did not even have marriage for about 199,000 years. Then the last 1000 years it has been a legal contract. A business deal. Love did not even enter into it until about 100 years ago.
Throughout most of time people both men and women had many sexual partners. Then we changed we got more civilized and we claimed an ownership perspective to sexual partners and added monogamy. This made this complicated since we are not monogamous creatures. We are sexual creatures designed to have lots of sex with lots of other people. Now I know this makes some of you feel ill. But it does not change the facts.
Denying that is like denying that we need oxygen. And has the same serious consequences. Oh but it is the lying that is so bad. We had an agreement. Really?
I cannot tell you how many women have lied to me and how many ways they do it. My wife broke just about every agreement we had after we were married. Other than cheating. Some of it hurt and some of it made me ill. Still today. I consider myself a very transparent and honest person and I am always upfront with the women I date and never try to hide anything from them. And what I usually encounter in return is. Lies, deception, false expectations, manipulation, disrespect for other peoples feelings.
Now not all women are like that. And not all men cheat. But once again. When we create a system of dishonest expectations like our current love/monogamy/penalty code. We call marriage. What do you expect people to do.
But a deal is a deal you say. How many people are even given a taste of what our true human nature and sexual identity is? Let alone a 20 something who thinks they are in love and is ready to get married. Talk about not being a part to the decisions of a marriage. You dont even know the ground rules of their own nature from the beginning.
They have no clue what they are getting into. Believe me I know. I have the scars and all of my friends have the scars to prove it. How could they. We are given a system that we must adhere to that is the opposite to our own nature. And then if we don't follow it we will encounter, disgust, disdain, anger, hatred, separation from our family and friends, ostracism and great financial loss. But there is one problem. We are still trying to do what nature has built into our very core. What is there left to do but cheat. Not to hurt the other person. But to try to get what our deepest part of our being says we need, without hurting the other person.
Sure cheating hurts. It really hurts. And AM is full of married women who cheat also. This is not exclusively a male phenomenon. So what do we do. Well we can stop doubting that these men and women do not have legitimate needs and they deserve to live also. And when they say they are in a sexless marriage maybe accept that they have a point. And we can recognize that maybe we need to talk to our children in a different way about this strange aberration called monogamous marriage.
I know I wont get very much sympathy on here. And probably a lot of heat. Thats ok life is not always a smooth road. But I leave with one last question. How many of you know of a long term happy monogamous marriage? And remember before you answer this. We are talking about honesty here.
Not too many. I live in a very nice family oriented upscale neighborhood and I can tell you they are dropping like flies around here. It has been that way everywhere I have been for my 50 years.
Peace.
One: my parents 55 years. Two: my grandparents 61 years. Three: parents best friends 52 years. Etc. etc . The difference is that that generation understood common tent and DUTY, and character.
I love this post, very refreshing perspective! I'm happy to hear about men and women who are living fulfilling lives, regardless of the morality that other people try to impose. If the wives are happy in sexless but loving marriages and the husbands are kept happy by occasionally having sex outside the marriage, everyone comes out ahead. As long as Lucy is aware that she should never try to become the 'number one' person in these men's lives, I say keep doing what you're doing!
I find it interesting that you bring morality into this.
If I find pleasure in killing people, is that okay? Wait – no? You're imposing your own morality, then.
If I find it easier to steal than to earn my own living, is that okay? What if I only take money from rich people? No? Then you're imposing your own reality.
Having sex without the consent of everyone involved is a product of rape culture. Everyone deserves to have full disclosure of what is happening when sexual organ meets sexual organ. Anything less isn't an issue of oh-gasp-what-have-you-done, it's as wrong as stealing from someone (taking money or property without consent) or murder (taking a life without consent).
This feels like an Ashley Madison add.
Having sex without the consent of everyone directly affected is a byproduct of rape culture.
Everyone deserves to have full disclosure of what is happening when sexual organ meets sexual organ. If your spouse has put his penis somewhere other than your vagina/body, you deserve to know. If you consent to that, that's your business. If you don't, you should have the opportunity to choose to leave. Anything less is sex without consent, and that is part of rape culture.
Getting checked for STDs and such is good, but completely irrelevant to whether or not sex is okay. You have the right to know anytime a serious agreement of yours is not being honored. There are women here having their sexual choices taken away from them, and I'm shocked that there are people who are willing to say "well as long as you're happy…." Would you say that to a rapist? No? Then why are you saying it to someone who is taking other women's sexual choices away from them?
Anything less than full consent from all parties is as wrong as stealing from someone (taking money or property without consent) or murder (taking a life without consent).
This isn't an issue of someone with 1950s morals gasping at someone else. It's an issue of humankind needing to learn that inflicting things on other people without their consent is wrong. (Murder, genocide, slavery, rape….all products of lack of consent. Just because some other form of lack of consent does not rise to the seriousness of the aforementioned does not mean it shouldn't be eradicated. We need to live in a consent-based world or we will always be a world in pain.)
Even the author of this article admits what she is doing is wrong (read her comments). She said she would stop if she got to know these wives (e.g. if she actually had to witness what she was doing – instead of dehumanizing or abstracting them). This is deeply disturbing. She's saying she can take away someone else's sexual choices as long as she doesn't have to face the person as a fellow human being. That is the exact platform that genocide, murder, rape, and crime are built on. That is an ugly part of human nature that we should work to get rid of.
Two consenting adults is now rape culture? You wonder why there are no comments on your post? Because as soon as you mentioned the words 'rape culture' people just tune you out because no one wants to entertain the thought of that idiotic feminist rhetoric.
I'm late to the party, but I have a slightly different perspective. For six years, I was engaged to a wonderful man who was a dear friend. I'd been in love with him for a long time before we started dating. Unfortunately, once we moved in together, I realized he had walls that I couldn't crack. He was a workaholic, emotionally withholding, and not as sexual or as affectionate as I needed. He seemed so different from when we were dating that I was stunned, but I still loved him to pieces, so I tried to make it work.
We had good times and bad, and when they started being more bad than good, I talked to my fiancé about it. Often. I told him exactly what I needed and suggested solutions. He always resisted and got defensive. Or, things would change for a short time and then go back to the same old, same old. It got so bad that he couldn't even bother to acknowledge me when I got home from work because he was so obsessed with playing video games. But I still really loved him, he was an incredibly good man in spite of his flaws (I'm obviously only talking about the flaws here), he was my best friend, and we had a working relationship as well. The thought of leaving him devastated me. I just couldn't do it. Life without passion was better than life without him, or so I thought.
When I was at my absolute lowest point, feeling unattractive and unwanted because of what was going on at home, I met a man through a work project. He was flirtatious and fun, and joked around with me a lot, but I just thought it was friendship. All the attention, friendly or not, made me feel good about myself again.
We started to hang out a bit and talk over social media, and I completely deluded myself that he was just a friend. I had several close male friends, and my fiancé never had an issue with it. One evening, I was at my new "friend's" house and ended up having one slow dance with him. I thought this was a "safe" way to get some of the affection I was craving without betraying my parter, because dancing with someone wasn't a crime, right? Wrong. This friendly, happy guy changed in an instant, and turned very sexually aggressive. He tried to rip my clothes off. I fought with him, and in the tussle, the zipper on my skirt was broken. He pinned me on the couch and kissed me, but backed off when I said I couldn't go through with anything because I still loved my fiancé.
I'd thought this friend was safe (very naive, I know), because he seemed so inexperienced with women and very sweet. Once I knew him better, I found out that he'd had sex with nearly 100 women (almost all one night stands) and that every sweet, friendly-sounding line he'd used on me had been used multiple times before. It was a game, and he was a predator. He saw my engagement ring, something in my manner or reactions let him know I was lonely or vulnerable or both, and I ended up in a situation that I'll regret for the rest of my life.
Soon after this happened, I initiated a conversation with my fiancé that ended our relationship. It was devastating. While I don't think we were meant to be together, in light of our issues, I certainly didn't want it to end like that.
I realize this isn't quite the same situation, as the men Lucy is seeing signed up for an infidelity matchmaking service, and I certainly wasn't doing anything like that. But sometimes really good people can find themselves in a situation that ruins their relationships because there are those out there who see an engagement or wedding ring as an exciting challenge. And that's really sad.
I admit that I was foolish and delusional and probably a bunch of other things, but I honestly didn't see this coming. And an emotional affair of this kind is just as hurtful as a physical one, or pretty close. I've been on the other side too.
Four married men and a couple of single guys you're dating on the side? Exactly how many dicks do you need lady? No wonder there are 50,000 new cases of HIV/AIDS every year in North America alone. If you think for one second that you are the only person these married men are sleeping with than your are completely delusional. I've used those same lines multiple times when I was in my early twenties. I'd tell them that my girlfriend didn't want to have sex with me or some other BS that would get me in their beds, and guess what, it always worked. Women are so easily manipulated I swear, they will believe just about anything you tell them.
Those married men probably have about 2 or 3 other women their having unprotected sex with, telling the same lies they're telling you. What about their wives? How do you know their wives aren't out cheating on their husbands as well? What if one of these men's wife is a sociopath that will hunt you down with a knife or gun? Is one night of sex really worth dying over? One guy said he'd been on the site for a year and you're the only one he's made contact with? He's LYING!!! I've used that same line in my youth. Enjoy your future STD. Whatever you contract, I hope it's curable.
Lucy here – I was always very safe with my partners, haven't been with any of them in several months and have a clean bill of health. And, quite honestly, I never cared if they were sleeping with anyone else. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. Actually, since one of my lovers and I stopped sleeping together we've talked about another girl he hooked up with! I wasn't looking for love at that time in my life, so there was no 'oh, baby, you're the only one for me' stuff.
"I honestly do think that sometimes cheating can help a relationship (so long as the one being cheated on doesn’t find out).."
So basically you find this idea of being deceitful 'okay' as long as no one finds out? This 'what they don't know won't hurt them' nonsense? I would venture to say that this very attitude is the reason for the rise in debauchery over the past 50 years. Back in the 50s if you got caught cheating you were publically shamed. No man/woman would touch you with a 10 foot pole.
Nowadays all you damned youngins think it's okay to lie and deceive others because it's all about YOU in a relationship, right? Selfishness. You all refuse to confront your problems and you'll resort to being twisted and deceitful instead. That is cowardice, selfishness and the beginning of the downward spiral of morality.
Anyone who cheats should, for all intents and purposes, be subjected to the same pain they cause the person who is being cheated on. You kids don't give two flying ducks about the damage that being cheated on causes–it's not 'just sex'. It never is. You not only shake that person's confidence in themselves, but you shake their confidence in the entire gender of whoever they loved. A woman who has been cheated on and finds out will be deeply hurt–she will lose confidence in herself and find it difficult to trust in men/women again.
None of this matters to you kids, does it? No one wants to take accountibility, no one wants to be honest with each other and everyone prefers to lie, deceive and do whatever it takes to get what they want because it's all about the self nowadays. Screw the world, is it? Have some respect for yourself and others–don't cheat. Confront your problems. Be the bull and take life by the horns.
And as for this Bidderman person, he is by definition a sociopath. He sits atop his corrupt empire, profiting off of path being caused by others. In fact, he facilitates it. Adding fuel to the fire demands responsibility. Accessory to a crime still holds that person to said crime. This 'Ashley Maddison' is the black monolith that signals the beginning of the end of morality–a festering wound, out in the open, declaring that facilitating the harm of others is not only accepted, but profitable.
If, by now, you are going to insinuate that I am merely a bitter old person–congratulations for finally coming to that conclusion. I am bitter for having seen the decline, day by day, of the morality of the people. Every year that goes by, this planet's inhabitants seem to lose their minds just a bit more. This Bidderman person is contributing more to it every passing moment. If deceit 'brings your marriage back to life' you require being stopped for a moment to consider just what that means.
I couldn't agree more! (And I'm a young person. : )
I just noticed its been a year since this article. How about an update on Lucy and her story?
I found this article an interesting, but tough, read like many of the others that have responded. I'm sorry to necro a year-old article, but it was linked in a more recent post, and there's an answer I can't find in the article or any of Lucy's responses: Why turn to a website that promotes infidelity? What made you decide you specifically wanted to date married men, and not find single FWB partners?
Hey, 'Lucy' here! When I saw the new True Story about infidelity, I guessed that my story would be linked – and what do you know! In case anyone is interested, things kind of tapered off with most of the guys, and we mostly wound up just chatting every now and again for several months, with the exception of Sir who I continued to see regularly. A few months ago I met someone who seems pretty special (although it's a pretty big physical difference) and we're working on the old long distance relationship thing.
Samantha – the answer to why I sought out the infidelity site was because at that point I wanted to try being sexual with men where I KNEW there was no change of a relationship. Since then I did try one of the FWB sites and guess what happened! I developed feelings for a couple guys who had no intention of dating anyone. It was really more of a self-preservation thing than anything, and it worked out – as things 'ended' (again, I still chit chat with all of them on occasion, and have even dealt with one of them on a professional basis through work!) I never felt hurt or like I was losing a relationship, it just stopped.
I still have several men from my past (married and not) who occasionally will suggest that we have sex. My reaction has been interesting, I haven't done anything (and don't intend to) but I really feel like if I did it wouldn't have anything to do with my boyfriend. It wouldn't mean that I didn't care about him, or there was a problem with our relationship – it would really just be scratching an itch. I've also thought that if he slept with someone else, I think my reaction would be, well, of course hurt, but mostly more along the lines of 'Did you do it because you're unhappy with me or just because you did it?" If It was just something that happened, I'm pretty sure I could get over it. Sex and love don't necessarily mean the same thing.
"I've been cheated on several times and not only does it feel like a personal betrayal, but it also (for me) felt like my power was utterly taken away. Instead of being a respected part of a relationship, where I could make my own decisions about what kind of relationship I wanted to be in, I was only a prop in someone else's choices."
I think this idea is a little naieve. When we choose to commit to a relationship, we choose how WE will behave and we do it knowing there is a chance our partner will deceive us; your partner cannot take your power away, because you never had power over his/her actions in the first place.
Have faith in the future, and enjoy the present 🙂
My dad cheated on my mom, not only that but he had a child with the other woman. I’ll never understand the mentality and excuses people make for cheating nor do I care. My mom ended up with three marriages and the last one lasted but he died and so my mom was widowed. Her last marriage was her happiest.
I’ve had acquaintances that had open marriages, only to find out one of them didn’t want the open marriage and was going along with it. I knew I never wanted to sacrifice myself. Monogamy may not be for everyone BUT it is for me. It was painful but I didn’t date anyone in my teens nor had sex with anyone. I found another virgin in my mid-twenties and we became friends and later on bf/gf.
In fact we’re still together and live together. I’ve quit watching movies where people cheat or quit reading books where people cheat. There is a danger in giving too much grace and allowing a website like AM to exist. There is also a danger in being too close minded.
When the AM scandal happened this summer, I didn’t feel any pity at all when peoples names started to come out. I used to be an atheist for most of my twenties but as I’ve hit my early thirties I started coming back to Christianity.
I’ve seen that what the bible says is true. People will find excuses for any sort of egregious behavior. Just like the bible says, I’m not going to get in the way of sinful people. I’m going to stay very very far away from them and let the consequences fall where they may.
My own relationship has been tested too.
A married woman at my boyfriend’s workplace would drop strong hints, etc. She was very attracted to my bf, unhappy with her husband and told personal things about her relationship to my bf. Eventually she started getting inappropriate by telling him like she wasn’t having sex with her husband.
When he turned her down she started complaining about him at work. He ended up quitting. Good guys are out there. They are. You have to have patience and keep finding them.
If you ever decide to turn things around Lucy, and give a good guy a shot, I hope you find him. I don’t want to condemn you at all. I don’t know what you’ve faced in your life and what life has thrown your way. I do know that when people do things like these that there’s a lot of pain behind the facade.
Jesus once said to go and sin no more. I believe that. As a Christian I don’t believe in shaming people. My hope is that you stop doing this, move on and eventually find happiness because you’re worth it.
What I find interesting is you claim to be sleeping with 3 different men. Yet you never address the topic of Sexually Transmitted Diseases. Our culture and Hollywood glorify casual sex and rarely discuss or depict the fallout. Usually women suffer more than men. Not only do I find your actions of sleeping with married men to be deplorable and amoral but the message your testimony sends to impressionable women contemplating the same debasing behavior is abhorant. Did you and your adulterous partners engage in STD blood tests prior to screwing each other? Chances are despite what they tell you they most likely are still intimate with their wives. Are you clean? Have you even been tested to see if you risk infecting their innocent wives with STD’s through their husbands? You don’t mention protection or safe sex. The entire article is a pathetic attempt at normalizing a behavior that has a great potential to damage multiple parties – some who don’t have a choice to be involved. If it is so important to glorify adulterous behavior and express how empowered you are by living some fantasy you could at least address the important subjects like life threatening and life changing diseases that plague our society. I’m disgusted with the entire topic and do hold a very unsavory opinion of you and your lovers. The moral fabric of every civilization starts with the standards the women set. We need to raise the bar ladies. Sleeping with married men is unacceptable. Men who really want to leave can get a DIVORCE. This is a sickness that is spreading and the agenda to normalize this behavior is evil. Marriage is sacred. Vows are sacred. Matrimony is sacred. Have your cake and eat it too is not acceptable when one enters into a marriage vowing to be faithful through better or worse. The men are weak. You Lucy are the Jezebel in this scenario. In my opinion you are the biggest part of the problem. If women like you weren’t around and accepting of screwing married men, perhaps the men wouldn’t defile themselves so quickly. Perhaps they would actually work on their relationship issues than escape into temporary pleasures of the flesh with a common woman. Yes. Common. How tragic.
The part of this that upsets me most is Ashley Madison and the people who make profiles to find sex outside of their marriage.
There is no valid or noble reason to betray your spouse. Period.
If you think you need sex outside of your marriage, get the f#&@ out of your marriage, and do yourself a favor and STOP GETTING MARRIED! Save it for the monogamous people who don’t want to hurt the people they love.
Marriage vows are there for a reason. Have you listened to them lately? It’s all about loving that person when you no longer feel in love, and pretecting them, and doing what’s best for them? Nowhere in any set of vows of all the weddings I’ve attended is there a line about having sex with a stranger when things get rough in your marriage. Sorry, but it’s not in the fine print either. You stay and make it work, or you file for divorce and set that person free to find someone who will love and respect them.
Lucy didn’t bother me as much as the cheating husbands did. She isn’t breaking vows. She does need to stop using the hilarious “all the good ones are married” excuse. I rolled my eyes so hard at that line that my eyeballs hurt. Keep telling yourself that, sister, and you’ll keep settling for less than you deserve!